28 thoughts on “Heavy Rain

  1. Jason
    “We are Christians; it is not our nature to do wrong. Our very nature has been changed. Now we are actually saints; righteousness is part of our new nature and it is natural for us to glorify God. Our old man is buried. We need to stop visiting our tombs and talking to our dead, old man. (In the Old Testament, people were judged and killed for talking to the dead—a practice called necromancy.) We are a new creation.”
    Really?? This is a bit of a stretch, using this quote to counter the comments concerning what Kris Vallotton states that not only he experiences but that his students also in communicating with the dead.
    Kris may have implied here that “talking to our dead, old man.” equals the practice of necromancy from the OT, and of course it’s obvious here that he is talking about being dead to sin “our dead, old man.” and continuing to crucify the flesh and keep it dead.
    But I can assure you that the conference that I attended and what was said by Kris had absolutely nothing to do with his quote from his book. Read my comment again where he was asked directly by the founder of the fellowship “CAN YOU SPEAK WITH THE DEAD?” One of his experiences that I didn’t go into detail about was that he even saw and spoke with Earl Johnson, Bill Johnson’s dead father.
    As you have stated that ” the things I haven’t been crazy about, it is usually what I’ve heard people say about Bethel, realizing of course it is second hand knowledge and sometimes nothing but hearsay.”
    If you haven’t done any investigation into them by now, unfortunately you probably won’t anytime in the near future but I pray you do. Hold to the Word of God and the love of the truth

  2. This is a direct quote from another of Kris’ books called “Supernatural Ways of Royalty”

    “We are Christians; it is not our nature to do wrong. Our very nature has been changed. Now we are actually saints; righteousness is part of our new nature and it is natural for us to glorify God. Our old man is buried. We need to stop visiting our tombs and talking to our dead, old man. (In the Old Testament, people were judged and killed for talking to the dead—a practice called necromancy.) We are a new creation.” From Chapter 5 Here’s the link… http://www.kvministries.com/index.php?page=Supernatural%20Ways%20Chapter%205

    That doesn’t sound to me like he supports conversations with the dead.

    And to be clear about the things I haven’t been crazy about, it is usually what I’ve heard people say about Bethel, realizing of course it is second hand knowledge and sometimes nothing but hearsay.

    I’m in no way trying to defend everything Kris has ever done, I’m simply saying he has some very powerful and valid points in this book that I fully appreciate and are challenging to the way we do Church… that’s it.

    People spend so much time online trying to expose others as being false teachers and prophets it’s not even funny! how much time didn’t Jesus spend doing that, or even Paul for that matter. We label people “false” far too easily.
    By the way they accused Jesus as false and having a demon for crying out loud. As soon as someone thinks a little differently or challenges the staus quo we scream heresy!

    This will be my last post, I find these things never go anywhere anyways. The book is great! I really like it, I’m really challenged by it, and really encouraged that we serve a mighty God, who has called us to be a mighty Church!

    Go Kris!

    Peace in the Glorious Name of Jesus Christ!

  3. Jason,
    I have just started to read the book, so I will not comment concerning “Heavy Rain” at this point. However your statement:
    ” I for one haven’t been crazy about everything I’ve heard or read from Bethel either…..”
    Although you don’t say what things you are not crazy about or why, I would like to encourage you to maybe take closer look into those things. It doesn’t take a lot of digging to uncover much error and false teaching. I speak from experience, once a follower and caught in the deception of WoF and at the end of it the Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton flavor. I heard Kris speak at one of our Fellowship’s, Pastoral leadership conferences a few years back. When the founder of the fellowship asked Kris if it were possible to talk to the dead. Kris most certainly said that you could. He went on to say even though he doesn’t really understand it, it is possible and then he went into a few of his own personal experiences and how many of his students at Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry experience this all the time. He even gave an example of one young woman who actually saw and spoke with Amiee Semple Mc Pherson.
    This is pretty well openly talked about if you do a little research. I’m not positive but I believe Kris may have told this same story in one of his books or videos. Never once did Kris, nor anyone else at the conference raise the issue of what scripture says about talking to dead people……which of course is ..we’re not supposed to.
    I can tell you that even though the scripture popped into my head while I was listening to Kris, I was quick to push it aside, intent rather to listen to his “experiences” with God rather that listen to that word that was already in me. Yea, I was deceived and participated in it, to my shame. Thank God for his grace and mercy for just a few short years later He delivered us out of it. So please take a much closer look into these things, please don’t pass them off as “non-essentials ” and I ‘m not saying that you are, I just know from my own journey that it’s easy to do and it’s a very slippery slope.
    God Bless

  4. Hey closingstages

    I agree very much with you that Revelation paints a picture of events that do not leave us feeling warm and fuzzy. However what I am saying as well as I believe Kris is challenging us in , is to see that as the Church our outlook should not be dreadful of this world all coming to an end, (which it will, my head is not buried in the sand on this matter) but rather that all things are about to become new! David Wilkerson talks about us having this attitude in his book “The Vision” in which by the way he also shares some things to come that do not leave you with that warm and fuzzy feeling either. However we must understand that these things are signs of two things the end of a wicked faulty kingdom (thank God!) And the beginning of a new and righteous one!

    I believe we need to understand the very principle seen in the cross of Christ, Jesus didn’t go to the cross in expectation of dread, it says that “He endured the cross for the joy set before him.” I really feel that this is the point Heavy Rain is trying to bring home. Jesus himself told us many times, “Do not fear!” Yet so many in the Church think all we have to look forward to is fear and dread in the coming times.

    Jesus even said that these things will be a sign that the kingdom is near in coming! That’s exciting and hopeful! Not to be dreaded.

    I believe that even as we see in the Book of Acts that the Church will once again move in such a power that causes the sinner to cry out, “How must I be saved!” in these last times…why? Because all of our words and ramblings and arguments are not convicting the sinner, they are ineffective and lack power! Even Paul the Apostle said, “The kingdom is not a matter of talk, but of power!”


    Again… Blessings to All in the Deeply Precious Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ

  5. Jason, I’ve been thinking about your comment and you are right, the operation of most if not all of our denominations are tanted, however let me remind you that when you look into the ministries of the Charismatic movement you will find there is very little difference. I know, with their charisma the grass looks greener on the other side. But, they are plauged with as many disfuctions as the mainline denominations. There has been as many if not more sexual scandal’s, false doctrine, lording over the house of God, etc. as their has been in the denominational church. Scripture is clear, “THE TRUTH” is only found in Jesus Christ, and we have God’s revealed will penned in Scripture. In Kris Vallotton’s book you might notice very little is said, if nothing at all, concerning the Lordship of Jesus Christ. There is no balance even with them in the fivefold ministry of the Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher. It’s all about the Apostle (and prophets), open celestial vortex’s opening up over the Apostle, (you know) new age lingo. And now, after 2000 years, the Bible is outdated, and the new super Apostles are going to lead the way to a new and brighter future for the Church and the World. Does the Word of God teach such things? I think not! Somehow, our new apostles have a new vision, revelation, and what they claim God is saying to them contradicts God’s Word (The Bible). Their Apostolic mission today (as it is seen in the NAR and WoF) is moving the Church into a New Age Philosophy that the world is getting better and better, that the Churches mandate is to transform the world, conquer nations, and bring all nations into obiedence to the Church “BEFORE” Jesus can return. Again, is this what Scripture teaches? I thnk not! If we look through the Doom and Gloom we would find the glorious appearing of Christ to establish hs Kingdom, this then, is the hope of the Church.

  6. Jason, I’m not saying there are not problems with donominational churches, I spent many years in them. So I understand there are real problems there. And I have heard many teach false doctrine. That’s why I’m not there anymore. However, you have to understand that Kris Vallotton and Bill Johnson believes and teaches the parital preterist view (dominion theology), and that is the underline theme of “Heavy Rain.” I have found many contradictions in the book, and many missaplications of scripture in the book. He spiritualizes many passages to fit his agenda, this is a violation of true Hermeneutics. Secondly, there is a vast difference between the “gift of prophecy” and a “prophet.” As the saying goes, One man’s trash becomes another mans treasure. I have seen many people come out of the deception of the Word of Faith movement by some of the warnings on my blog site. As far as doom and gloom, if your honest with yourself and the Word of God, God does not paint a warm and fuzzy picture of end times. It’s not doom and gloom to proclaim truth, or to warn others of deception.

  7. Hello…

    I for one haven’t been crazy about everything I’ve heard or read from Bethel either, however that does not mean that Heavy Rain is heretical. Regarding some of their not- so- wise handlings of certain matters, I’ve also been in evangelical churches that have overlooked things when they shouldn’t have just as much as some of these pentecostal/charismatic circles.

    I’m actually really enjoying the book, and I know and love the scriptures alot. And I read them for what they say, not for what I think. I have not come across anything that Kris is saying that would be anti-scriptural. Geez people even the prophets in scripture didn’t always pronounce Gloom and Doom, they also healed and pronounced blessing! It’s like we expect it, if it’s not gloom and doom then it’s not biblical… to me this is itself is a problem!

    I think Kris really covers the function of the five fold ministry in building up the Church with scrutinous thought and scriptural understanding. He is challenging te Church to go back to the BIBLICAL way of doing Church! If we really want to expose that which is unbiblical, let’s look at the present day operation of most if not all denominations. We have President’s (not even in scripture anywhere) Supervisors ( again not in scripture anywhere) If you tell people your going to go into the ministry, they immediately say, “Oh, you’re gonna be a Pastor.” Like Jesus only gave the one gift of Pastor to the Church!! Read Ephesians 4:11 people!

    Kris’s insight into denominational control is bang on, and I hope people get it, I really really do.

    And by the way, I’m a Pastor, in a denomination…LOL. And I submit to my leadership, because God blesses it! However submission does not mean we are without a voice, a voice to promote change!

    Blessings to All in the Mighty Name of the Lord Jesus Christ!

  8. Thanks Damon, I looked at the reviews and thought about leaving a short commentary refuting it, I still might. It troubles me to see such a lack of coherence to Biblical thought or truth. Thanks for the advice, I will do that when I get a chance. I plan on doing a second audio on Heavy Rain in the next couple weeks. God bless Brother!

  9. Hi Mike, I might be confused but I think what Barb is saying is that all the reviews for this book at Amazon are “glowing” and there are no refutation type comments yet. So in other words, it would be nice if someone went to Amazon and put a link back to this site/post, and if you feel like it – you could leave a short commentary refuting a point or two. It would help people and bring folks to your site here. I am not sure if they allow links on Amazon but you can fake it by going closingstagesDOTnet/2010/12/22/heavy-rain-3 or closingstages (dot) net/2010/12/22/heavy-rain-3,,, something like that.

  10. Oh my Barbara, I see what you mean. Well, my response would be “subtlity” is at work in this book as it is the partial preterist view birthed out from the Roman Catholic Mystics. The reality of it is, the Word of God paints a very different view of end times. And it is a view which becomes hard to swollow at times. But the reviews themselves at Amazon only show the apostasy already at work in society. I choose to stick with God’s Word and prepare for Christ’s return and all that is coming surrounding His return. Thanks for the heads up, I might be able to use some of the reviews in my next audio on Heavy Rain. God Bless.

  11. m’kayla, 2 Corinthians 5:10-11 says “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your conscience.” To condone adultry, as Bill Johnson and the NAR has with Todd Bently makes me shutter. I have often wondered if the phrase “in the body” in this text is talking about the church body rather than our own personal bodies, or both. Either way, they swept it under the rug. There is information that Todd Bently had numerious affairs and bill Johnson had knowledge of it. Now I know that none of us are perfect, and we strive against sin everyday. But, we are not talking about the accasional slip here, we are talking about someone who has continued a sinful lifestyle while in ministry. And you are right, what will come next?

  12. We have to remember the prophecies about Bentley had already gone out – the “third wave” and Bob Jones’ vision about a “tattooed eagle from Canada” and of course that ridiculous ceremony with all the NAR-ite false prophets kissing his feet. They couldn’t back down and look like fools to the rest of the world! Even at the fall, it was called “burn out”. And even tho Bentley finally admitted to the affair, it isn’t the main thing in my mind. It is his false teaching !!! and his horrendous treatment of those who trust him and come to him for prayer. If they will accept and endorse that, what will come next?

    I too fear for the outcome of those who will not hear the truth. Imagine standing before Jesus thinking He is your Lord and then being told you were never a follower of His, but one of a false teacher, false prophet… and to “depart!” Nothing will change that outcome.

  13. Thanks redeemed hippie, the truth is being choked out of the church today, we are in hard times. We are God’s Elect and the only thing to keep us from being decieved by the delsuion is the love of the truth. We must cling to the clear teachings of the Word of God! It is my most charished possession. I trust the Word of God with all my heart, it has never miss lead me yet. God bless!

  14. You guys are making me teary. It is amazing how God can work when we get out of His way. All that I have learned has been worth all the bad names I have been called by those who refuse to. I count all the rejection tears as gain. Praying God will deliver many more still.

    God bless and keep each of you.

  15. You said it Harry, that’s kind of funny, in fact Bill Johnsone I am told new about the affair before it went public. Yea, I want to follow that…NOT!…Thanks for the post.

  16. Hey Brother Damon, we are family, and I thank both you and M’kayla as Pat and I would not be were we are right now without the both of you and your sites. It has helped us in ways I can’t explain with words. So…here I am doing the same with the hope of helping others. God bless you Brother!

  17. Sherid, you are right about the end times, I feel it to. I believe we are on the very edge of it. I also watched Justin Peters DVE series, it is incredible, his teachings are with such humility and clearity. As far as Bill Johnson and Bethel, he is very subtle and is gaining ground in many churches across the country, even the world. I agree it is more deceptive than most ministries as Bill comes across as soft spoken, gentle even, but when you lisen to what he is saying, it wrecks havoc with the Word of God. Well as far as the Gospel, they have redefined what the Gospel is. In fact they have redefined Jesus and his work on the cross. My intent is to warn people of this deception, and to help people see Jesus for who he is, God, Savor, and King. I’m glad to see your passion for the lost, that has been lost today. God bless you for your comment, it is encouraging.

  18. We can see so clearly how it will be the apostate church helping to bring in the anti-christ — whatever whoever that may be. What is anti-christ? He who denies both Father and Son. These apostates are humanistic in their teachings and beliefs. Such a delusion is here, such a delsuion is coming and even the elect of God (whoever they may be) will be deceived if possible.

  19. Just followed a clicked through link over here and wanted to say I am so glad sister M’K and brother Mike and sister Pat have met and feel like family already. All 3 of you have meant allot to me. Thanks for all you have done for me and others.


  20. Hi there,
    Great stuff! We just watched the Justin Peters DVD series! It was incredible. I was also personally involved in the Bethel teachings and praise the Lord I am freed from it. For me personally after seeing and reading alot out there on the deceptions in the Christian church I would have to say that the most deceptive and most sinister is the Bethel and extreme supernatural mystics. They stand a part from the WOF people in that they are subtle and “calm” in their approach and preaching. WOF is in a way more obvious to spot, they are loud and obnoxious & have no outward display of any of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

    BUT bethel and its followers…they are what I would call the most serious case of deception out there. They are the epitomy of subtle and not so obvious.

    We must stand strong and pray for the return of the saints from this deception.

    I am so sure we are in the end end times!! I can just feel it. Stand strong saints and ensure you have the right “Spirit” – check it on yourself, by doing a simple check against the type of fruit you produce when you are “in” this ministry. The real gospel is one of sacrifice and putting God on the throne and us on the floor on bended knee. One that is characterised by perserverance in difficult times.

    Another good check is that if the movement you are following is popular then that should be a sign in itself. The narrow way is narrow and not popular…and not “fun” in worldly terms.

    The gospel of Jesus Christ is no laughing matter. The greatest miracle is actually someone becoming a Christian and having their heart changed by the Lord Jesus Christ. Our focus should be on living pure and self- controlled lives and getting the message of the gospel of salvation out to as many people as we can.

    When I feel the burden of the end times coming closer I do not laugh and find it funny, I find it a dreadful thing, fearing for those who will find themselves not saved when Jesus returns! There is no time to attend “bless me” and “pump my spirit up” meetings which encompass laughing hysterically. When we start to focus on ourselves and getting our next “fix” rather than getting out there to spread the message of salvation, then you know there is something seriously wrong & that you are following the wrong ‘spirit’.

  21. The amazing thing is that we are expected to blindly accept “new doctrine” from “apostles” who could not even discern what was going on in the life of Todd Bentley!!
    My motto: Stick The Old Paths!!!!!

  22. mkayla, I agree that it has spread worldwide and is gaining ground everyday! It has filtered down into the smaller local churches as I have had dealings with one church in my area intrenched in Bill Johnsons teachings. I use to serve in this church many years ago as an elder and I know many of the people there personally. The Pastor is seriously narcissistic, and all atempts to reach him personaly has failed. In fact, it has turn upon my wife and I as many rumors about us are being spread by him. We are in dangerious times, and you are right, Bill Johnson, C. Peter Wagner and Morning star are very advanced. What I am seeing now is the Emergent Church blending into this movement and soon we could see an assult on true bible believing Christians from these movements. After all, they view us as a hindrance, so in thier minds, we must be removed. Thanks for your comments, I’m sure it will help others who are seeking. Keep up the good fight of the faith sister, never give up, never give in. God bless you mkayla.

  23. Pingback: A Correction to Doctrinal Error in Heavy Rain « m'kayla's korner

  24. Hi.
    Kris Vallotton did a drive by on my blog a couple of months back. I came on this book and was amazed, and yes, terrified at some of the claims he was making. It’s a take off of what Bill Johnson has been claiming for some years now and so it did not surprise me. I considered buying the book for the same purpose and am very glad to see that you have done the work! Praise God.

    Earlier last year we saw a coming together of many “streams” – Bethel, Morningstar, just as KV pointed out in the book, but also IHOP (International House of Prayer) Mike Bickle, Cindy Jacobs of Generals International, the self acclaimed NAR prophet under P Wagner who also is deeply rooted in “societal transformation”. So the false prophets, including Bob Jones who advises most everyone who is anyone in charismania fame these days, those who were a part of the famed Toronto Blessing , the Arnots, etc. Because of this I believe this movement is far more advanced than KV stated in the book and it has been a long time coming.

    It was Loren Cunningham of Youth with a Mission (YWAM) who recently recounted the story of the Lord giving him the mandate of the “spheres of influence” back in the 70’s which are now considered the seven mountains.

    I have had a good number of people on my blog telling me stories of their churches or friends who have been overtaken by Bill Johnson and whose pastors refuse to hear the truth. Many are leaving churches because they see the apostacy, but many more stay and are swept up in the endless flow of false promises of power and kingdom authority.

    I find it necessary to also point out that Bill Johnson is pals with Cal Pierce who is over the International Association of Healing Rooms who have opened these healing rooms all over the world. The doctrine is the same, spreading from one to the other, freely given by Bill Johnson who holds no copyright of his work, he just wants it out there. So, CD, internet, etc. it spreads like wildfire. Add to that the influence of those involved in the healing rooms who lay hands on and impart this garbage, either by physical touch or teaching. It’s out there!

    It isn’t just Bethel on the west and Morningstar on the east, it is the entire NAR of Peter Wagner as far as that influence has reached – worldwide. Is is pockets of people in groups with names no one has ever heard, in nearly every city in this country and beyond. They are setting up apostles and prophets to control the people. This is not in the beginning stages by any means.

    Yes, I do believe they possess some kind of supernatural power, but not of God, of the demonic. I have seen it in action. It has to be powerful because Bill Johnson seems to have the authority and power to manipulate and convince people into believing the lie is the truth far better and more effectively than any false teacher who has attempted to do so before him.

    I just want your readers aware at how serious and far advanced this seems to be. I have many articles on my blog linking all of this together. Feel free to use the information if you would like to. After all, we ARE family! 🙂

    Blessings and peace to you in the name of our Lord. Thank you for upholding the truth!

  25. Pingback: “Heavy Rain” Book Review and Corrective Teaching by Mike Rodgers « THE WORD on The Word of Faith (a GroupBlog)

  26. Thanks Becky and John, I wasn’t sure if it would benefit people or not. I’m going to more audio’s on various topics in the future. Keep me in prayer as having to speak out has been and is costly and I don’t mean money. It’s incouraging to know you liked it.

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