Bill Randles Resolution

received_756991858142024.jpegAs many know, Pat and I have recently made a public apology on our blog to Bill Randles. Behind the scenes there have been several back and forth emails between Bill and us. He came to us claiming Matthew 18:15:20. While we understood his desire for us to hear his grievances, we believed that Matthew 18 was not the appropriate process to go through. We decided to move forward with it for the sake of resolving what we could with Bill and thankfully some issues for Bill have been settled. However, ours have not. Another major concern for us is with the public apology and the comments that followed, we can clearly see that the entire exchange between us has left more unaddressed and unsettled than what was resolved.

Additionally, it is with  concern that the application of Matthew 18 in circumstances such as with Bill Randles and us causes more confusion to the body than clarity. This is due to the fact that there has been no resolution for us in the matter and we have no where to take the matter since we don’t attend the same church body, so bringing it before the church is not an option as Matthew 18 reads. Also, since the entire content of the emails have been in the public forum in the past, except for our apology, we have decided to make them public to hopefully bring some understanding in these matters. More, importantly, we still desire a scriptural response from Bill concerning our issues.

1. All the emails have been placed here. There is a lot of information so we choose to put them separate so those who want to read through it all, may. Also, we will be quoting from the emails and this will make it easier to fact check what was said.

2. Comments are disabled on the email page. This post is where one would comment concerning the emails and a link to this post will be included on the email page.

The doublemindedness of Bill Randles is something that is well known from his articles and actions, of posting an article then taking it down or of contradicting himself from one paragraph to the next in the same post and or comments. We have encountered the same thing within our communications with him.

Here is Bill’s initial email to us claiming Matthew 18.

Mike once again I appeal to you as a brother in Christ, to at least be willing to talk to me man to man. We are Christians, and we should be able to the glory of God to work out our differences. You call me out on ad hominem, but have you gone through your own comments on this blog, and seen your own attacks on me as a person? I am featured in at least fourteen of your articles, you have commented about my motives, our church split, my physical appearance, you have falsely accused me of cowardice, and of being jacob’s henchman…I would really like to get together with you and talk and pray in the Spirit of Matthew 18 and try to glorify Jesus between the two of us.
I was touched by your testimony, coming out of Spiritual abuse, and I am sure you have helped many many people already.
For some reason you seem to have a lot of hostility in your dealings with me, and I just don’t get that. I am even willing to come out to Indiana or wherever you are to meet with you and to try to be reconciled.
I am not joking when I say I think You and TBCKAWAii and obviously Treena ,are every bit the railers that Jacob is, you are just more selective. Just peruse the mean spirited banter among you after the articles you posted about me.
Please hear me out, this couldn’t be the will of God and I am more than willing to communicate with you as long as we can be civil. I am not on trial (that I know of) I haven’t hurt or abused anyone, that I know of. My differences with David were theological. I ask you in the name of Jesus to please be willing to dialogue, either in person or by e-mail…Pas Bill Randles”

 

  • Notice that Bill says once again and then lays claim to Matt. 18 as if he had come to us claiming that scripture before. Bill first contacted us in April of this year but did not invoke Matthew 18 and included wanting to “dialog” with Frank Rogers and tbcawaii as well. Certainly not a Matt. 18 senario
  • We also saw that he added Frank Rogers to the email. We assumed as a witness. Bill never made mention of Frank to us. Again, if Bill is to follow Matthew 18 correctly, he would have emailed us without adding Frank. At the very least he should have mentioned the fact that he cc Frank. Now we assumed it was for “witness” purposes, but we really don’t know for sure. We too added Treena Gisborn in our response to him and stated clearly why, for a witness. Bill was inconsistent with the Matthew 18 process. He would add Frank to one email and not the other and he never included Treena in any. Which we pointed out to him.
  • Another point of concern was Bill said:

For some reason you seem to have a lot of hostility in your dealings with me, and I just don’t get that. I am even willing to come out to Indiana or wherever you are to meet with you and to try to be reconciled.”

 

  • . I ask you in the name of Jesus to please be willing to dialogue, either in person or by e-mail…Pas Bill Randles”
  • And he brings up meeting face to face again here:

“We have an issue. Matthew 18 is the way to resolve the issue. I am proposing that we go that way. Where is the problem , exactly brother? 

I think it worthwhile that we do this, and patiently work through our misunderstandings, prayerfully also. I would love to meet with you, are you in the Midwest? Sincerely, pastor Bill Randles”

I have some concerns here,  in Bill’s first email to us he says we can dialog in person or by email. Our thoughts went immediately to Frank and if we were to meet face to face, was Bill also going to pay to fly Frank over and bring Frank  with him too? Secondly Bill states that:

“I believe it would be best to do this in bits and pieces, as there is so much of a different way of looking at this between the two of us, for example, …”


Our thoughts were how long were you planning on staying once you got here? It seems Bill’s response of being perplexed on what we said concerning Matthew 18 would have caused Bill’s stay here to be an extended period of time as Bill’s response to us was only concerning his confusion on our Matthew 18 concerns, which we stated were strictly for the record. Add to the fact  we have added Treena as a witness. Were we to bring her over also to meet? None of this made sense to us and Bill seems to be disconnected from what Matthew 18 requires and wants to add a witness then remove them then meet in person without witnesses…

Thirdly Bill now spins this into a lie by stating:

“I will gladly meet with you two or talk by phone or continue to dialogue with you, since you just can’t let this go. You are the one who refuses to meet, and when you do apologize, you just can’t resist going back to the subject the next day. And what hypocrisy, calling me out for putting out “negative comments ‘ about you, after all you have written about me? What I said about you is mild and true.”

We never refused to meet, we choose to attempt to work this out through email and yes we did shut down the communication as Bill did invalidate the Matthew 18 process and disqualified himself from any form of serious communication with us; he was consistently inconsistent with adding even his own witness. Then he comments on a fb post where he speaks ill of us; while we were in the process of communication with him on a resolution. This is how he spins and justifies his actions:

I didn’t choose to invalidate the reconciliation process, You did, by rejecting my Matthew 18 initiative. My comments came in the period when you told me you would have to “pray about reconciliation and seek counsel about it”. As long as those comments remained in the public for all to see, I have no problem with calling you out as a hypocrite for posting them. “

We never rejected his Matthew 18 “initiative”. He invalidated himself with his actions and behavior. The screen shot of his comments were taken just a few days before we finalized our response that Bill knew was coming and had agreed to wait for. Also note Bill’s comment dates 10/09/19 by that time we had already removed and amended the comments and articles.

“Mike Rogers

Sun 10/27/2019 10:01 AM Bill Randles; Frank Rogers

Bill, I will need to take counsel and seek the matter in prayer.  It will take some time as I have much going on right now so it may be a few weeks.

Bill Randles <pastorbillrandles@gmail.com>

Sun 10/27/2019 10:46 AM You

Not a problem, I think it would behove both of us and the body of Christ to be reconciled… Tanks for considering and praying. I was touched by your testimony …pas Bill

As a seasoned pastor one would think that a little self-control in responding to a fb comment would be certainly the wiser. And wouldn’t it have benefited the body better to have commented that Bill and us were in some type of dialog resolution?

Now the issues we have with Bill have remained unanswered by him, not just in this forum but Bill has never addressed our concerns scripturally or otherwise concerning David Nathan and continues to malign David Nathan. These issues we will continue to address in further articles. However, if anyone has questions we will certainly try and answer them.

 

 

12 thoughts on “Bill Randles Resolution

  1. Right. His words are explicitly vague, singularly ambiguous, and distinctly indistinct. He’s committed to being non-committal, carefully tiptoeing around with his overblown wordsmithery.

  2. Well said, Anthony. Bill seems to have it mastered, where it has become a second nature to him. Only thing is he has never mastered the part where he contradicts himself blatantly but then he falls on the victim sword.

  3. I’m sure many have noticed several times over how Bill employs the heavy use of misdirection and sleight-of-hand technique in his writing/blogging (not to mention flat out disingenuousness). It’s a defense mechanism that kicks in whenever he feels the need to exonerate himself from some issue or challenge. What does he always do, without fail, when he’s confronted with some conflict especially when it might have a strong bearing on his image. He blogs. What can be seen scattered throughout? Deflection, through the use of misdirection, ultimately for self-preservation. There are certain instances where one gets the sense that there is this disingenuous nature inside of him and that actually draws attention to the possibility that something is wrong. Like he’s creating his own conflict and then tries to cover it up. The Sergio Mariani statement is a good example. Recently, on someone’s Facebook post pointing people to a Closing Stages article, Bill jumps on and in his comment he refers to “Sergio’s lying rant”. The question to be asked is, what exactly about it is “lying”? Is the statement itself a lie in the sense that it was completely fabricated with an intent to deceive? Is the entire thing a lie, or are there elements spoken within it that are specific lies? On the other hand the reality is that Bill is most likely being deceptive (and bearing false witness himself) when he accuses Sergio of lying. And his followers are left with saying “Oh ok, Sergio’s a liar.” Some other recent examples: referring to Sergio as his “friend and brother”, and in referring to ex-members of his church, “I have no doubt they are enriching churches all over Cedar Rapids and that makes me very happy” when addressing Moriel’s claim that his church is severely diminishing. This is that sleight of hand technique used all the time to make himself appear warm, benevolent, and innocent. It’s used to make himself look good and acts as a powerful sympathy card to further endear himself to his followers. So he has this way of addressing things akin to a burglar escaping out the back door of a house the moment before the homeowners return. It “appears” as if the issue is being addressed when in reality it’s left dangling before the reader’s eyes completely unanswered and open-ended. The question people would probably be asking is, “Why apparently do so many people leave Believers In Grace?” He pretends to answer by not answering. This is very evasive and unforthcoming and this kind of monkey business is shameful, but sadly this is how he rolls.

  4. In dealing with Bill these past several months and watching others try to resolve issues with him,as well, concerning his actions, teachings and statements; several patterns have emerged. Bill will post and then remove things, almost, routinely. He has made many conflicting and contradictory statements as shown in our last comment, the emails and in Treena’s article. He has been shown by his own words to lie. Perhaps this explains his removing posts and comments, when caught he removes them? He has consistently refused and ignored all inquiries and questions requiring a scriptural response. We no longer seek an answer from him, we have our answer. However we do want to warn others and will continue to do so. Our prayer continues to be for those deceived, hurt and wounded by not only Bill but all of the leaders that are still and or have embraced the Moriel cult mindset.

  5. Mike and Pat, I think Bill is on a disingenuous apology tour! Thanks for the update. I do have to say, I was taken back that it took him time and prayer to realize calling someone names was wrong and required an apology. But, like typical Bill he had to throw in how much he hates this blog. He could always do like I’ve done with Servus Christi’s page and quit looking at it.

  6. Further embellishments of the truth by Bill Randles. We had informed Bill that we were done with dealing with him as he was untrustworthy in his dealings with us and his abuse of the Matthew 18 process that he initiated and that he disqualified himself from it. Frank Rogers, Bill’s witness weighed in with his take on what he had witnessed between us:

    “Pastor Bill, I believe Mike had shown great humility and grace in initiating peace with you by issuing a public apology and removing much content he felt was done improperly. I believe if you really seek peace you will have to bring forth your own apology to Mike and others instead of simply claiming the high moral ground and publishing their humble apology. If you cannot return grace for grace, humility for humility I highly doubt you will achieve peace with mike and others. What-aboutism will not suffice here, instead of pointing the finger it must start with you Pastor Bill. True humility seeks to be the initiator in owning up to our own error first….”

    Bill’s response to Frank was:
    “Frank and cannot offer a reciprocal apology, for I have in no way injured Mike. I never knew him at all, when he began his vicious campaign of sliming my name. It was I who initiated Matthew 18 and he who refuses it, but now publicly claims that I am the one who refuses it…..”

    Notice that Bill claims that we refused to engage in the Matthew 18 process and that accused Bill of refusing it. That is untrue, it’s clear why we stopped, Bill refused to comply with the Matthew 18 process himself and invalidated it by not adding his own witness by posting comments in the negative about us during the process among other things. He also refuses to take Franks advice and counsel and when you look to Matthew 18 when witnesses are added they are not meant to quietly stand by but are to weight in as Frank has done. Bill has rejected this from Frank, his own witness; which further shows Bill inability to comply and take correction or counsel.

    Here is yet another email we received from Bill with a supposed apology. This was sent to us after Bill had posted an apology to Treena Gisborn on an unrelated article on her blog site. This type of behavior just shows Bill’s reluctance and resistance to come out publicly and sincerely apologize to her. Treena then added the comment where Bill had called her names along with Tim Wirth and us. Bill realized he was caught so he sent us a private “apology” of sorts, while including how much he despises us. Much could be said about Bill’s “type” of apologies but that’s another post by itself. Also note that our issues with Bill have always been clear and they were never about his calling us names. Here Bill says:

    Bill Randles
    Fri 11/22/2019 8:27 PMYou

    Dear Mike and Pat, have had some time to think and pray and realize how wrong I have been to fling out names such as “ moral midget” at you. Please forgive my intemperate remarks. Although I abhor the blog you run, and regard it a grave injustice, I have no right to call you names, please accept my apology, Pas bill

    Our partial response to Bill:
    “Bill, what we would really like to stress and for you to understand, is, that your apology for names you’ve called us was never an issue with us. We will leave that completely between you and the Lord.
    Our issues were and are your continued attacks on David Nathan and your total lack of presenting any relevant scriptural facts that you stand on to make such claims valid and refuse him restoration. There’s no need to go into this as it all has been stated before by ourselves, Treena and others. You’ve been given a lot of space (months)and grace on this matter and you have chosen to ignore it…..”

    What we have seen over and over is that Bill twists the facts, to his benefit. There are several places within these emails where Bill just outright lies. We see this pattern in many of his other communications, not only with us but others. We want to present the facts here so that all see these things and are able to see the truth from error.

  7. Quote from an article on Matthew 18
    “The heavy-handed application of Matthew 18:15-20 leaves a trail of pain, broken relationships, and human carnage among God’s people. Controlling authoritarians use Matthew 18 to silence dissenting speech, prophetic criticism, and to label people as trouble makers–sources of contamination in the assembly that must be purged.

    Speech is articulated thought. Articulated thought calls to action. Action shapes reality. Whoever controls speech, controls reality. Tinpot dictators learn this in Tyranny 101 class. Misguided church leaders often use Matthew 18 as a speech/thought-control template. They can manipulate a group of individuals and thus control and shape a community’s experiential reality: a reality that too often accrues to the material, social, or psychological benefit of the church leadership. Dissent or disagreement is viewed as disloyalty to the group, denomination, or an individual leader. Fear motivates those leaders to suppress the thought and the individual behind it and to formally remove the individual from communal life. (quote from “Matthew 18: Misunderstanding And Misuse In Conflict Resolution”, by Dr. Steven R. Crosby)”

    This is a fairly good article on the topic of conflict resolution. While I may not agree with it all, it has some excellent points to consider. Often coming out of false teachings we don’t realize we carry the teachings with us. It’s always good to review with fresh eyes.

    https://stevecrosby.org/church-life/matthew-18-misunderstanding-and-misuse-in-conflict-resolution?fbclid=IwAR35Eda8raVGbUrBBDfSlcWMwmpOrU5BeKpvaX56bwAsNbGK1c-JTTZ6CUk

  8. From a person on the outside looking in, it seems to me Bill is a double minded man. In his article titled “Why It Is Folly To Call A Christian Woman Jezebel”, Bill admits Jacob Prasch rails against the Menelaws. And, admits that every time Jacob rails against them “he is guilty of a serious sin”. However when a person left a comment stating it seemed like Bill was just “Anti-Jacob”, Bill responded, “Thanks for the concern, duly noted. I am not on an anti-Jacob mission it just so happens that he is a recent example of this unfortunate phenomenon”. Bill makes it seem like he casually just mentioned Jacob in this article because he needed a recent example of this “unfortunate phenomenon”. Another example I’ve seen, Bill called the people that comment on Mike and Pat’s blog railers as bad as Jacob, just “more selective”. Mind you, this is while Bill is expecting and asking for an apology from these very same people. But, again you see Bill making the comment over here on the Closingstages blog that Jacob is a non-selective railer. But, he’s not on an Anti-Jacob mission. I personally believe Bill and his wife like to poke at people until they retaliate, then cry victim. I also personally believe they love the drama aspect of all of this, and not the real issues concerning real people and real heart break. He admitted it. Is he really concerned about the Menelaws, so he’s discussing the issue in his blog…or like he told the person in the comments, he just needed a recent example of this “unfortunate phenomenon”. Which is it? I have mentioned before about Bill’s wife poking at Servus Christi…why do that? Because they crave attention and drama. I think the best thing to do for Bill is to ignore him, until he begins to be truthful and honest. He’ll only do a schizophrenic dance that no one can follow…it’s just a complete waste of time.

  9. Pingback: BILL RANDLES IRRATIONAL BEHAVIOUR IS SOMETHING TO BEHOLD! ~ Treena Gisborn | Closingstages

  10. Bill really should be preaching to himself anymore. Im glad he stuck up for Deborah and Stewart Menalaws in his latest article (that’s still up). But he cannot resist taking a cheap shot at a fellow pastor based on gossip and what was probably a 1 time event (if it even happened). I have been in a room full of people when Bill openly gossiped about another pastor instead of pulling Jacob aside privately at the Hayes conference where Bill was one of the speakers. After Bill was ignored by Jacob he walked away and then his wife has a word with him and kicked him back into play. Bill does treat his wife with respect and love in public and behind the scenes. But why gossip? Bills says in his article ” Remember that the WORD of GOD commands us .”Thou Shalt not bear false witness….” . Yes indeed and Bills doctrine is pretty solid so listen to Bill but do not do everything Bill does. And Bill was really nice to help with Donna’s fund raiser to help pay for some in home care. Bills daughter and son in law both gave as well. After giving your son in law or daughter (not sure who because the name was Anna Marie but the picture was a guy) started to rail into me on another blog. So is this tag team spirituality? So your nice to somebody and then kick them in the teeth? Can people not be nice with no strings attached or vows of silence taken? This MO seems to be the same with other ministries these days. Thats why people leave churches and sometimes even fall into the hands of something worse like the Emergent Church. They do this because of heavy shepherding and spiritual bullying. Really sad. Seems like this is done for the cool out of town gigs.

  11. As far as I understand it, David Nathan has publicly repented of everything, with one exception .. he did inform me that he still holds to his millennium teaching, though he has retracted his comment about “the blood of Jesus”.
    Prasch: “Once the harpazo transpires, the Lord will refocus His primary intentions on the salvation of Israel, although not salvation in the sense that we understand it, NOT BY GRACE, it will ?? revert back to the Old Testament way of dealing with man and the nations.”
    https://youtu.be/UPNqKXRC8c0
    I profoundly disagree with BOTH OF THEM on the denial of salvation by grace during the millennium, but even they changed their view, I would not feel that it was my place to “forgive” them.
    Can Bill Randles clarify what exactly he will not “forgive”. If it is on the millennium question, then It is not for Bill Randles to “forgive” a doctrinal error.. only the Lord can do that. We forgive one another our sins against each other, not doctrinal error. (Colossians 3:13). We “expose” false teaching – that is all.
    “Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.” Ephesians 5:1.
    It is OK for Bill to say that he does not agree with David’s millennial teaching.
    However, if this is the case then he should also call out Prasch?
    Again, if Bill will not accept David’s public repentance, then it is Bill who has the problem, not David.

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