Bill Randles Correspondence

Bill Randles <pastorbillrandles@gmail.com>

Sat 4/6/2019 3:08 PM

Mike I would love to dialogue with you if at all possible.Pas all

Response

Mike Rogers

Mon 4/8/2019 5:42 AM

Bill Randles

Sorry Bill just saw this, your email was sent into the junk/spam file. I’m willing to dialogue, you may use this email or the other one I sent you, which ever you prefer.

In Him
Mike

Second Email

Bill Randles <pastorbillrandles@gmail.com>

Fri 4/12/2019 12:51 PM

When are we going to dialogue? Pas Bill

Response

Mike Rogers

Fri 4/12/2019 3:45 PM

Working on it.

Response

Mike Rogers

Sat 4/13/2019 7:51 AM

Bill Randles

Bill,

As Jude wrote, he intended to write about our common salvation but instead exhorted believers to earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.  It would be so nice if we could all just gather together and enjoy the salvation given us by our Lord Jesus, wouldn’t it?  But we cannot afford the luxury, as in the days of the Apostles we still must contend with evil men who’s only purpose is to elevate themselves above others and crush any who will not surrender to their will and purpose.

You appear to be concerned more about what people say about you than those who have been shipwrecked by Jacob Prasch.  Just this past week someone plastered my name on their blog site saying things that were just untrue.  I’m not concerned.  What does my name matter in the service of Jesus Christ?  I’m not going to acknowledge the individual as I have enough discernment to know it’s a bait and switch.  Its what they want.  I’m only concerned with what the Lord has tasked me to do, contend for the faith and fight for those who have been wronged by Jacob Prasch and men like him.

I haven’t seen you take a definitive stand against Jacob’s campaign to destroy David Nathan, the Menelaws or the countless others Prasch has destroyed.  Who will minister to them, who will help them recover?  I’ve seen you teeter on the fence, you did post one statement in defense of the Menelaw’s but then retracted it, as you said because your blog is not people magazine.  Not exactly sure why you would use that analogy when the letter was defending the Menelaws as your friends, just as you say Jacob Prasch is.

James wrote, “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.  For we all stumble in many things.  If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.”

Church leadership is judged with a higher standard then those who follow, 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 give great attention to details, but James reminds that those in leadership will be held accountable for exemplifying Jesus Christ in their spirit and behavior, as well as their words and deeds.  You should know better being in the ministry for 40 years.  You should have clearer discernment.  It should be easy for you to see Jacob for the brute he is, you should be able to see his destructive behavior.  Yet you and many others sat silently by and watched even and especially when it violated Scripture. You do get some credit for initially speaking out about Prasch’s horrible treatment and behavior. Still at the end of it all was David Nathan continually asking for reconciliation, open to correction and desiring a  meeting to make things right EVERY time he spoke, and he also corrected his error and still was asking  for reconciliation and it was meant by you and others again with silence[ except for the videos you all were a part of to talk yet again about your “concerns” of what he had already repented of. You remain deaf to these facts even today as in the very email you sent to me, you still don’t acknowledge his repentance and correction of his error.

David Nathan in his brokenness, humility and earnest desire to reconcile has set the bar high, a standard that you nor anyone else mentioned here has even begun to meet and all he did was follow Scripture in trying to resolve all of this. This speaks volumes and many have realized the true  error now  is that of Jacob Prasch”s and all who support him.

I know what is required in ministry, both pastoral and otherwise, but I will never sit idle and silent and watch a man tear God’s sheep apart.  If one is to be honest, Jacob doesn’t teach truth in many areas of his doctrine.  He is misogynistic, hateful, and cruel.  If he would have simply met with David Nathan privately over his doctrinal differences, everything that has happened since would have never been.  But he refused!  Another biblical error on his part.  And like most sects, the people are more loyal to the leader then to Jesus Christ and His Word.  Sadly, he acts similar to the cults he came out of.

I put no man on a pedestal, my loyalty is and will always be with Jesus Christ, His Word, and with those who align with Him, with the hurting, and those abused by “Church Leadership.”

For the record, I haven’t personally attacked you, I’ve approved videos and comments which have included you, but the greater focus was Jacob Prasch.   I as well as many others have and will continue to expose him. People will no longer sit by and allow him to continue his destructive behavior defaming the Name of Jesus Christ.

If you want to clear your name then stand up and fight for those wounded by Prasch, be the pastor they need.  Serving Jesus Christ comes with a cost, sometimes it cost us everything, our friendships, family, properties, even our own identities.  We all must weigh the cost and the value of what we do and what we don’t do? As James wrote, we all stumble in many things, all we can do is own it and continue to earnestly contend for the faith.  Preachers today want the recognition, the popularity, the money, and the power, but they never want to pay the cost for following Christ.

Also, your request that comments about you that you don’t approve of be “nixed “and that I should contact Frank Rogers and tbcKawaii for you and that you are owed an apology I will have to respectfully decline. At least until I see a biblical response publicly on behalf of David Nathan, the Menelaws, and many others wounded by Prasch.  At that time I will be willing to amend comments in your defense.  As I said, the greater focus is Jacob Prasch.

Below is a list of other issues from not only your email but the comments you’ve made on closingstages blog, which will also be made public.

  1. You state in the email you sent that you’ve “been a friend of Jacob Prasch’s until recently” and then in a comment on our blog on the same day you say “although I admit to being a friend of Jacobs (in spite of his flaws)”
    So which is it Bill? Are you or aren’t you friends with Jacob? You see the problem here? You are still speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Let’s not forget that this whole issue involves much more than just character flaws, this is sin and error.
  2. “What got my attention was the headline “Bill Randles Continues his vilification of David Nathan” by Treena Gisborn” This of course was an article written by Treena and the real question needs to be put back on you as to why in the world you wouldn’t have contacted her directly as she is the author? I’ve found it very strange that you wouldn’t contact Treena Gisborn directly and start a dialog with her; so, I’m more than happy to forward this to her so that perhaps you will be able to clear the air on this with her. We support her position and you know as well as anyone that she speaks quite well for herself and is perfectly ready and willing to defend what she has written scripturally and otherwise.
  3. “I challenge you to show me one instance of me abusing David Nathan in any way shape or form.” And“I have been operating out of sincere doctrinal concerns, and not as a mere flunky of Jacob Prasch’s” And “Make of it what you wish, but myself, Haller, Amos Ferrel and Ian Huxley really do have genuine concerns about David Nathan’s comments, it is not just a personal squabble among ministers.”
    Your abuse and what you call “sincere doctrinal concerns “ amounted to open letters on your blog with no contact with David Nathan. You continued, as you still do, to regurgitate your “doctrinal concerns” as if David Nathan has never publicly reached out, asked for a meeting after meeting, and for reconciliation and was certainly open to correction. He admitted his error and corrected it. Yet you have never acknowledged that nor has Prasch,  Haller, Ferrel or Huxley. But you ALL were willing to go on video to reinforce ALL of your “doctrinal concerns” that he has publicly admitted and corrected. He was meant with silence from you ALL, that’s abuse, that’s violating the scriptures, especially to continue to reiterate your “concerns” even in this email. Your intentional failure to meet with a man that is willing and pleading for reconciliation lays at all of your feet. The abuse lingers still as you have yet to reach out to him but still speak of an error he has corrected and repented of. Seems like there’s just some things you’re not letting go of here Bill.
  4. You also stated “I have forty years of ministry integrity”
    Well between you, Haller, Ferrel, Huxley and Prasch there may be among you all a couple of hundred combined years of what you call “ministry integrity” yet not one of you could figure out how to do the right thing and meet with a brother? This remains to be answered.

It is my sincere hope and prayer that we all perhaps have learned to walk a little more circumspectly when it comes to truly adhering to God’s Word allowing it to change our hearts.

In Christ,

Mike Rogers

NOTICE: The emails above ends our correspondence with Bill Randles in April 2019 and are listed here to show that Bill never mentioned applying Matthew 18:15-20. Which by the way know doesn’t apply to our circumstances. Be that as it may after placing all the information here so all can read, we have heard from Frank Rogers whom Bill had added to our correspondence as a witness. We have updated this page to include them at the end.

Bill Randles <pastorbillrandles@gmail.com>

Sat 10/26/2019 8:42 PM

  • You;
  • Frank Rogers

Mike once again I appeal to you as a brother in Christ, to at least be willing to talk to me man to man. We are Christians, and we should be able to the glory of God to work out our differences. You call me out on ad hominem, but have you gone through your own comments on this blog, and seen your own attacks on me as a person? I am featured in at least fourteen of your articles, you hav commented about my motives, our church split, my physical appearance, you have falsely accused me of cowardice, and of being jacob’s henchman…I would really like to get together with you and talk and pray in the Spirit of Matthew 18 and try to glorify Jesus between the two of us.
I was touhed by your testimony, coming out of Spiritual abuse, and I am sure you have helped many many people already.
For some reason you seem to have a lot of hostility in your dealings with me, and I just don’t get that. I am even willing to come out to Indiana or wherever you are to meet with you and to try to be reconciled.
I am not joking when I say I think You and TBCKAWAii and obviously Treena ,are every bit the railers that Jacob is, you are just more selective. Just peruse the mean spirited banter among you after the articles you posted about me.
Please hear me out, this couldn’t be the will of God and I am more than willing to communicate with you as long as we can be civil. I am not on trial (that I know of) I haven’t hurt or abused anyone, tat I know of. My differences with David were theological. I ask you in the name of Jesus to please be willing to dialogue, either in person o by e-mail…Pas Bill Randles

Response

Mike Rogers

Sun 10/27/2019 10:01 AM

  • Bill Randles;
  • Frank Rogers

Bill, I will need to take counsel and seek the matter in prayer.  It will take some time as I have much going on right now so it may be a few weeks.

 

Bill Randles <pastorbillrandles@gmail.com>

Sun 10/27/2019 10:46 AM

  • You

Not a problem, I think it would behove both of us and the body of Christ to be reconciled… Tanks for considering and praying. I was touched by your testimony …pas Bill

 

Response

Mike Rogers

Tue 11/12/2019 10:40 AM

  • Bill Randles;
  • treenagis@yahoo.com;
  • Frank Rogers

“Mike once again I appeal to you as a brother in Christ, to at least be willing to talk to me man to man. We are Christians, and we should be able to the glory of God to work out our differences. You call me out on ad hominem, but have you gone through your own comments on this blog, and seen your own attacks on me as a person? I am featured in at least fourteen of your articles, you have commented about my motives, our church split, my physical appearance, you have falsely accused me of cowardice, and of being Jacob’s henchman…I would really like to get together with you and talk and pray in the Spirit of Matthew 18 and try to glorify Jesus between the two of us.
I was touched by your testimony, coming out of spiritual abuse, and I am sure you have helped many many people already.
For some reason you seem to have a lot of hostility in your dealings with me, and I just don’t get that. I am even willing to come out to Indiana or wherever you are to meet with you and to try to be reconciled.
I am not joking when I say I think You and TBCKAWAii and obviously Treena, are every bit the railers that Jacob is, you are just more selective. Just peruse the mean spirited banter among you after the articles you posted about me.
Please hear me out, this couldn’t be the will of God and I am more than willing to communicate with you as long as we can be civil. I am not on trial (that I know of) I haven’t hurt or abused anyone, that I know of. My differences with David were theological. I ask you in the name of Jesus to please be willing to dialogue, either in person or by e-mail…Pas Bill Randles”

 

 

Dear Bill,
After prayer and seeking counsel in this matter, we can move forward prayerfully, civilly and within the confines of the Scriptures. You have defined in your email a list of things where you say that I have sinned against you according to Matthew 18:15-20. Before I start to address these items, let me clarify something in your email, for the record, that is perhaps a little misleading. In your email, you stated “once again I appeal to you as a brother in Christ, to at least be willing to talk to me man to man” and then you go on to say  “.…I would really like to get together with you and talk and pray in the Spirit of Matthew 18. “

Let me point out that in the first communication that I received from you, there was no mention of Matthew 18 being applied. In those communications, you also included the desire to “dialogue” with Frank and TBCKAWAii. Here is your original comment on my blog:

 

 Billrandles 2019/04/06
billrandles.wordpress.comx
pastorbillrandles@gmail.com Mike-  or Frank I would like a dialogue with either or both of you, as I believe I have been maligned and misrepresented on this page and in your accounts and in Hackawaii’s account of the whole Jacob/David Nathan fiasco. I am a serious pastor and proponent of the Gospel and take exception to being misrepresented without a


NOTE: Your comment does literally end mid-sentence. We’re not sure why – we assumed that perhaps you hit ‘post comment’ before you meant to.

And here in your email to me:
Mike I would like to clear up some misconceptions that You, Frank Rogers and a person named tbcKawaii are furthering about my role in the recent Jacob Prasch David Nathan fiasco. I hope I can get Frank Roger’s and Kawaii’s e-mails as well.”

 

I point this out because you have added Frank to this communication, I can only assume as a witness, which would be the second step of seeking reconciliation according to Matthew 18. Having said that, I agree that coming together to attempt a resolution between us should involve witnesses. I believe that is a wise thing to do.  Let it also be known that I will continue to seek counsel and prayer from those I have already contacted as we move forward.  Finally, on the issue of Matthew 18, I fail to see how this applies directly to your and my circumstance: however, I am certainly willing to go forward, prayerfully, in this dialog, as far as we can.  Additionally, you mention Treena and TBCKAWAii. I cannot address issues in their regard as they are not mine to speak about, and I would strongly encourage you to contact them, as you have me.

 

Firstly, I will respond to your email citing Matt. 18 and the issues/trespasses concerning you that you have levelled against me. Secondly, I will address the issues I have had with you that continue to be ongoing and remain unresolved and unanswered Scripturally.

I would also like to say that I am certainly willing and able to try and rectify things that I have said, in snide or snarky ways, that have caused you discomfort, grief or pain. Of equal importance, I want to put this right so that no one in the body of Christ is caused to stumble. It is difficult at times, in our work at closingstages, not to take a shot even when we know we shouldn’t. God has helped us in the past to control the impulse to say things we shouldn’t. We are thankful for that and pray that God will continue to work in us.

 

As a general rule, ad hominen attacks against myself are ignored as it only shows the petty immaturity of carnal behavior.  Although none of us are perfect, at times I have allowed my emotions to cloud my judgement, as noted above. The reminder of the protocol by a trusted brother in the Lord has given me the correction I needed in order to return to it. Let me add that I do allow comments by others that may contain ad hominem remarks only to give them the right of expression.  Allowing people to express themselves is a form of therapy, which helps them work through their pain and frustration, promoting healing. The only thing I can do is control myself. There are many comments that I do not approve.

Below is the list of things you have accused me of. I will address them and certainly apologize and ask for your forgiveness where I have misspoken or spoken in a way which was wrong. Please also know that statements like this will be removed from my blog. Let me be clear – it may be that I don’t remove all the comments, but I will remove portions of them. Articles I have written will be edited accordingly together with a statement explaining this in the updated articles. Let me also say that many of the articles concerning you and David Nathan were not mine, but that I shared them on my blog. They will remain on there and you will have to contact those who published them, such as Treena, TBCkawii, etc.

 

You have listed five items where you say I have sinned against you.

  • Your church split
  • Your physical appearance
  • Calling you a coward
  • Commenting about your motives
  • Calling you Jacob’s henchman

 

  1. Your church split. Yes, I admit I have mentioned this in some of my comments and I apologize and ask for your forgiveness. I have removed the statements made referencing your church split. Below are comments that I made and have now removed. To the best of my knowledge there are no others but if there are, then they too will be removed.

 

  • It’s no wonder your church split. (NOTE: the last sentence was removed 2019/10/29)
  • Mike Rogers 2019/05/29
    closingstages.wordpress.com Bill Randles may not qualify for ministry himself, his church split only serves as an example that he prefers a “world renown” status over actually pastoring his church. But I’m sure that even though he is the pastor and leader of his church somehow his church split is someone else’s fault. Clearly, he doesn’t have a grasp on New Testament teachings concerning “church discipline,” what pastoring involves (when your running around the world), and lives in a bubble of sorts, (a group think) which differs from New Testament Biblical thinking. Regardless, the scales must be tipped in their favor or else your comments are removed. A double standard to add to the rest of their debacle’s.

When you as a pastor don’t understand or are obedient to the Scriptural teachings surrounding church discipline…
When you as a pastor do not teach and warn the body of Christ concerning wolves in sheep clothing…
When you as a pastor are indecisive and vacillate…
When you as a pastor do not use Scriptural discernment and take a definitive stand against error…

…you then may want to rethink your position as a pastor and step down for the sake of the Body of Christ or step up and do right by the Word of God with boldness.

 

  1. Your physical appearance. Yes, I have made comments that were snide about your weight. Again, I apologize and ask for forgiveness. I have removed the comments and two statements in the article. https://closingstages.net/2019/09/06/bill-randles-twists-and-turns-eisgese/

 

  • Or put the fork down and take a walk…..stop killing yourself. 
  • It’s difficult to listen to this while watching Bill, as it’s clear that he is not comfortable standing and always shifting from one foot to the other to alleviate the weight on his feet joints and bones. NOTE: I personally don’t think this was derogatory but I removed it anyway.

 

  • Mike Rogers on September 6, 2019 at 4:52 pm said:Edit

 

Yeah Bill I am confident that you got as big as you are by dieting

 

Having said that, to call someone obese when they in fact are is not a railing, slander, or a personal attack so long as it is in line with the evidence presented.

All other statements concerning your weight were in no way meant to be demeaning or insulting, just factual. You may choose not to believe that – there is nothing I can do. I believe the article stands on its Scriptural merit in disputing your eisegesis of the text on Paul’s thorn in the flesh. The mention of your weight was clearly defined in the article as an example, since you were referencing others who struggled with sin for decades. You then suggest that they may not be saved.  The article will not be removed as I still disagree with your mishandling of the Scripture for which you have brought no rebuttal. I would also like to note here that Tim Wirth has shared with me the fact that he contacted you recently and apologized for the manner in which he had said some things to you. He has asked for you to forgive him as well, but he also reiterated that he stood by the facts of what he presented. I concur with Tim.

 

These comments have been removed.

 

  1. Your cowardice, Yes, I did call you a coward, here: Mike Rogers 2019/04/18

closingstages.wordpress.com  In reply to John. Bill Randles refuses to answer these questions and once you pin him down, he runs to the shadows in denial. This is nothing short of cowardice rebellion to the clear teachings of Scripture when dealing with brethren. It is a complete refusal to obey the clear teachings of Scripture on Church discipline. But Bill has a lot to lose, popularity, money, self-integrity (well he has already lost that), and maybe he is afraid of Jacob’s wrath should he speak the truth concerning Jacob’s smear campaign against David Nathan as he wouldn’t be able to travel the world as he does while in Jacob’s favor. Who knows, at this point these men are what they are, and one thing is certain, they will not do the right thing. Besides, it’s kind of too late now anyway, the damage is done, and they would look like the fools they are if they were to make a retraction now. So, they will live in the land of denial and hope it all blows over and people forget.

 

This comment has been amended, the sentence “This is nothing short of cowardice rebellion to the clear teachings of Scripture when dealing with brethren” has been removed.

 

  1. Commenting about your motives. Yes, Bill, I have commented about your motives, although I must admit I’m not clear as to how that is a transgression against you. I am certainly willing to apologize and ask your forgiveness if you can be more specific. “Commenting about your motives” is a very broad topic. It depends on what you are personally offended by and referencing, which you have not mentioned here. I will have to ask you to be more specific, in order for me to address it the best I can. I find it difficult to respond to as I don’t know what I would be apologizing or asking forgiveness for. And to do that would, I feel, be shallow and a misrepresentation of the guidelines set forth in Scripture. So, on this I will wait for your explanation. My, our,  prayer is that you will accept my apology and forgive.

 

5.Calling you Jacob’s henchman. Yes, I did say that, however it was said of not only you but others in an article. https://closingstages.net/2018/12/25/to-the-deaf-dumb-and-blind-leadership-of-moriel/

 

  • “Below is a video where David Nathan address all the issues he is accused of by Jacob Prasch and his henchmen who are determined to discredit David Nathan and villainize him as a heretic.”
  • “It’s a matter of conformation bias which is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one’s own beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities. It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning.  In attempting to debate supposed accusations the leadership of Moriel and its affiliates have made themselves look very foolish by stroking Jacob Prasch’s agenda against David Nathan and refusing to investigate the matter fully and address Prasch’s unbibical behavior and refusal to meet and resolve said issues.

**Men such as John Haller, Bill Randles, Ian Huxham & Amos Farrell cozy up to Prasch and are enablers to his hot style, aggressive, unethical, and unbiblical behavior all while David Nathan has pleaded for reconciliation.”

 

Note: Yes, I did call you and a few more, listed above, henchmen for Jacob and honestly Bill I stand by that. The behavior of all of the men in this video still stuns me, all while David Nathan was pleading for reconciliation.
I’m sorry if you find that offensive but considering the context of the article, I stand on what I wrote. There are several serious Scriptural issues mentioned in this article that still remain unanswered and/or resolved. And the group of men including you who produced this video have not Scripturally answered or addressed them to this day. Herein lay my issues with you. At this point, I would also like to clarify that although there are articles and videos about you on my blog, several of them are only mentioning you along with others many of them were not about you alone. As with this article.

When you say “My differences with David were theological” I also say that my issues with you are theological. I am compelled to speak out, as what you are teaching and practicing is Scripturally wrong. This is the bulk of the matter here. You continue to refuse to accept David Nathan’s repentance, correction and his desire to reconcile, yet recently have appealed to Jacob Prasch for reconciliation, a man who is not repentant. To date, you continue to say you don’t accept David’s repentance and continue to malign him publicly.  Here is your video link stating so, https://www.facebook.com/100009370648530/videos/2425970674391930/?id=100009370648530

:25 “Jacob it was only a few weeks ago that you brought your Metatron teaching to Devore, not twenty years ago. You may indeed be trying to communicate that the ideas of a God head and a trinity do not originate with Christians but within Judaism. I applaud that, I actually get that. You did indeed say that the Kabbalah is an ancient occult book and I thank God for that…..but then  in your teaching you actually  blend in the teachings. You state that Jacob the patriarch wrestled with the Metatron. Another item..”

1:21 mark “I actually stood with you against the errors of Dave Nathan and still maintain that the issues were not properly dealt with. I myself said the Menelaws gave a softball interview to Dave Nathan in my letter but there was no reason to rail so harshly on them, it was embarrassing and that’s why I chose to stick up for them and identify with them as friends. You know Jacob, I don’t hate them, I don’t hate Dave Nathan, TBCKAwii, Treena, the Rogers or any of the other very abusive railers that have emerged in this fiasco and I certainly do not hate you Jacob. I’m very sad that all of this has happened and still hope for some way we could glorify God in this mess.

5:37 “you (speaking of Jacob Prasch) have referred to me more than once, as Judas, and even in a public teaching. I regard that as an abuse of the very beautiful gifts that God has given you. You have distorted your platform, you have abused your gifts, this is a serious sin: but you know what? Jesus forgave me from so much, who would I be to every hold forgiveness from you. Jacob I want you to know that there’s a possibility of restoration and forgiveness, even for you and I.

Note: You move quickly on to the next topic rather than give Jacob’s teaching on the Metatron the serious Scriptural examination it deserves. Bill, why would you move on so quickly from such a major teaching error that blends an occult book with the Holy Scriptures?

In the last two statements, you once again mention standing with Jacob Prasch against the errors of David Nathan and once again maintain that the “issues” were not properly dealt with, indicating that the Menelaws (your friends) gave David Nathan a softball interview. Who gave David Nathan a platform to address these issues? Other than the Menelaws? No one, including yourself, and you still maintain that the issues were not properly dealt with and still call him “a blatant heretic” when in fact you and Jacob and Moriel crew are the ones that are in error.  You will give Jacob a pass on his railings and his “sin” against you, as you define it, yet you will not go into any great detail about his false teachings on the Metatron. And one has to note that you call Jacob out on his “sin” against you, but you don’t call it sinning when he teaches and blends occult with Holy Scripture. You are doubleminded – you have refused to accept a repentant man, David Nathan, and yet you plead for reconciliation with Jacob Prasch, an unrepentant man, who continues to teach error and rail. You say “who would I be to ever hold forgiveness from you?” Again, you not only withhold forgiveness from David Nathan, but continue to vilify him.

 

https://billrandles.wordpress.com/2018/12/30/why-there-is-still-a-question-david-nathan/?fbclid=IwAR1qlTIN1rXDrrGh7M3NZgJrTr1efL2iDcE8ExILmpLPwHBfPd7UEDfvD6E

“I am glad for that and accept that he believes the right thing about the blood of Jesus in this dispensation. I have been berated by many of David’s friends who have seemingly been baffled, demanding of me,”What more does David have to do to get you to see that he believes in the blood of Jesus just like you do?”

I am compelled to write this to you who feel this way and want an answer.

I have heard David’s sermons about the issue, and have heard him apologizing for having mis-spoke, and He even humbled himself (to his credit) admitting to pride in the way he had spoken. Praise God.

 

So what is my problem? Why haven’t I ‘forgiven ‘ him? *

 

My problem is that David has never explained why he said such an outrageous thing in the first place, and I have never heard him once specifically repudiate it.”

“I have all kinds of problems with these two issues, but don’t assume I haven’t forgiven or don’t love David Nathan because it isn’t true.“

You see, Bill, the above question that you pose is not our question to you. Our question is – what Scriptures do you stand on to refuse to accept David Nathan’s repentance? It flies in the face of Scripture to refuse to accept his repentance on the basis that you are not satisfied with his explanation as to why he said these things in the first place. You have to know that your dissatisfaction with his explanation does not negate or void his apology, repentance and recanting, which you also acknowledge and praise God for. Our role as believers is to accept a brother who has repented and to restore him. This would give you the latitude to speak with him – brother to brother – concerning the things you feel David needs to explain to you. Your refusal to do so and your continued labelling of David as a heretic puts you in what I fear is a deluded trap of your own making. This is why I am asking you to present the Scripture you stand on in order to continue this assault.

In another quote from same article, you say, “don’t assume I haven’t forgiven David Nathan.” You contradict yourself within a couple of paragraphs. Firstly, you ask “Why haven’t I forgiven him?” and then you explain why. Then a few sentences later you say you have forgiven him. Bill, this is a travesty that you double speak like this and cause such confusion and damage to the body of Christ.

But I fear you are forgetting just what forgiveness means – once we have repented before God, what we did or why we did it is no longer a concern. God places sin we repent of in a bag and throws it into the deepest parts of the sea.  It is forgotten, and the Blood of Christ cleanses us.  That is the beauty of God’s Grace and Scripture does teach us to imitate God (Eph. 5:1).

When Tim Wirth was with Moriel, I didn’t care for him much and I didn’t trust him. In fact, he tried to comment on closing-stages and at the time didn’t even consider it. I just deleted his comment. But then Tim did something, after he was ousted by Jacob. Tim saw just how wrong he was, and he personally apologized to Treena and Deborah, and then he made a public apology for the wrong he had done. I accepted his repentance, and the gates were opened. Since then I have visited Tim at his house. We have developed a relationship of trust and a bond of fellowship emerged. You see, this is how forgiveness and reconciliation work.

This is how you have presented forgiveness:

https://billrandles.wordpress.com/2019/08/29/abusing-discernment-in-the-name-of-discernment/ , dated August 2019 you say

In one recent case a serious heretic was being confronted but had the good sense to just stand back and allow one of the leading defenders of the faith who was confronting him, to spew forth his anger and vile. The heretic presented himself so much better than his chief detractor, remaining calm, trying to show himself pacific (up to a point) , that he gained many followers though it all in spite of his open and outrageous claims denying the Father as Creator, and diminishing the blood of Jesus in the Millennium.

How did this blatant heretic get away with it?

His chief detractor was right doctrinally, but so wrong personally, engaging in vicious rhetoric with several people at once, members of his ‘ministry’ created vicious graphics to ridicule his enemies, He called a confessing Christian woman vile names, lashing out right and left and virtually spitting and frothing at the mouth, denouncing anyone who tried to bring moderation as Judas, (All in Public!). All the heretic had to do was act humble, seem moderate, double down on his false teaching, and let his detractors shoot themselves in the foot. As far as I know, he is more popular than ever and still spouting outrageous claims in the name of the LORD>.”

It is nearly impossible to be right doctrinally while engaging in vicious rhetoric, as our behavior/conduct, especially leadership, is a doctrinal issue as well.  But…an issue for a later date.You’re not holding Jacob Prasch to the same standard as myself, David Nathan and others.

 1 Timothy 5:19-21 states: “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.  Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all (that would be public Bill), that the rest also may fear.  I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.”

It appears you show proclivity, holding Jacob up as a doctrinally-sound brother, a man who is vile and cruel to members of Christ’s body, a railer and completely out of control, over a man such as David Nathan who was pleading for you all to meet with him for correction and had a willingness to repent of any wrong teaching.

I would appeal to you to return to Scripture, because when it comes to Scripture and to our standing in Christ, we are all on the same footing. Keeping this in much prayer.

Lastly Bill, I would have to question your sincerity in all of this as you come to us seeking reconciliation under Matthew 18 and while it has taken us some time to respond to you, you agreed. Then we see you commenting on social media calling us railers equal to Jacob Prasch. This you posted just a few days ago, this seems at best disingenuous.

Bill Randles <pastorbillrandles@gmail.com>

Tue 11/12/2019 3:46 PM

  • You;
  • Frank Rogers

Great, glad to hear from you. It would  be to the glory of God if we could resolve these problems. I believe it would be best to do this in bits and pieces, as there is so much of a different ay of looking at this between the two of us, for example,  I am a little perplexed about what you are clarifying , and which you found to be misleading?

 

Before I start to address these items, let me clarify something in your email, for the record, that is perhaps a little misleading. In your email, you stated “once again I appeal to you as a brother in Christ, to at least be willing to talk to me man to man” and then you go on to say  “.…I would really like to get together with you and talk and pray in the Spirit of Matthew 18. “

Let me point out that in the first communication that I received from you, there was no mention of Matthew 18 being applied. In those communications, you also included the desire to “dialogue” with Frank and TBCKAWAii. Here is your original comment on my blog:

 

What do you mean? and what have you clarified? Where is the ‘misleading’ taking place?

 

We have an issue. Matthew 18 is the way to resolve the issue. I am proposing that we go that way. Where is the problem , exactly brother?

I think it worthwhile that we do this, and patiently work through our misunderstandings, prayerfully also. I would love to meet with you, are you in the Midwest? Sincerely, pastor Bill Randles

 

Response

Mike Rogers

Thu 11/14/2019 7:56 AM

  • Bill Randles;
  • Frank Rogers;
  • treenagis@yahoo.com

Bill,

Yes, indeed it would be to the glory of God if these issues could be resolved. There will be no need to do this in bits and pieces. I have responded to your concerns clearly and concisely and have laid out my issues, concerning your conduct, in the same way. The mention of my concerns of Matthew 18 was strictly for the record. Something that I have clarified and have stated was willing to move forward with. So, this is a non-issue. Our counsel understood this and were not confused.  So too is the protocol for how we are dealing with this. You stated in your first email:

 “I ask you in the name of Jesus to please be willing to dialogue, either in person o by e-mail”.


 It will be email and it only makes sense since you added Frank to the communications, and we have added Treena, which you didn’t add to your last response by the way. For you to continue to suggest meeting face to face would not be moving this forward but in reverse.

For you to bring Matthew 18 up as a starting point in your response to me, indicates that you may not be sincere. I say that since, as you claim, you are a pastor, being in the ministry forty years, and should be well acquainted with Matthew 18, so what I have stated should not be confusing to you.
You contacted me, use Matthew 18 as guidelines, to attempt to resolve issues you had with me. I stated that, I needed to seek counsel, prayer and that I had things going on where it may take a few weeks before I was ready and able to respond. You agreed to this Bill. You contacted me on 10/26/19 and I responded 10/27/19 and you replied the same day that it would not be a problem and thanked me, which by the way you didn’t include Frank in that response.

“ Bill Randles <pastorbillrandles@gmail.com>

Sun 10/27/2019 10:46 AM You

 

Not a problem, I think it would behove both of us and the body of Christ to be reconciled… Tanks for considering and praying.I was touched by your testimony …pas Bill”

I sent my response to you on 11/12/19. However, on 11/09/19 you were on social media calling us names and accusing us of sliming your name.

 [William Randles Tim Wirth it is not true what they posted about how”vile” Kris and I, and these hypocrites repost from Jacobs website when it serves their interest in sliming my name, such as when they posted Sergio’s lying rant … none of it is”hard truth”].

The question then must be asked, not only, of your sincerity but also does this behavior invalidate your use and claim to Matthew 18? The answer would be yes.  You brought with you a witness but didn’t wait for my response.
Honestly Bill it really is, a bit,  surprising  to me that you would have behaved this way, knowing that you had reached out to me and that I was working on responding to you, when you posted this comment.

Now while I do believe that this shows your  true intent and you have disqualified yourself in this matter. I do want to say that both Pat and I are thankful for God using this circumstance to correct us in how we have phrased things. Also know that our apologies are sincere and that we do hope that you forgive us. We are thankful that God has forgiven us, and that you will too.  We will not be responding to you further on this matter, as we have seen this type of deflection from you before in dealing with you and have seen you do this to others also. So at this time we feel it would be futile to continue  Bill, but we will and do keep you in prayer, Love hopes all things.

 

Bill Randles <pastorbillrandles@gmail.com>

Thu 11/14/2019 5:15 PM

  • You

Dear Mike and Pat I just want to say thanks for the apology on Closingstages.net.  I must admit I was a little surprised by it, having read your letter back to me, denying my request to continue on in the Matthew 18 process i initiated.

 

It took a lot of character for you two to post that apology, I appreciate that greatly.

 

I don’t know where we go from here, I still think further communication would be desirable, but on the other hand I am struck by how differently we think from each other.  I don’t think you understand where I am coming from, every time I try to communicate with you, I am shocked by what you get out of it, which is so different than what I intend to say.

 

Perhaps it would be sufficient to just let go of our differences, and start all over again, or maybe we should try to talk things out, I really don’t know.

 

I do know we can never get anywhere as long as we attribute the worst of motives to each other, or treat each other like adversaries or as if we are on trial.

Mike and Pat I appreciate your testimony, as I said, I was touched by what you said on Frank Rogers channel, I have come out of extreme heretical movements as well, and have worked for years to bring others out of them, as you are doing.

 

Perhaps we started wrong.

 

You, Pat and a lot of others did not like what you think you saw in me in the Jacob/David fiasco of a year ago. Fair enough, Fine. No one gets it all right, all the time, and hindsight is better than what you see when you blindly walk into a situation. If I had it to do over again, I would have done many things differently. I can see more clearly what actually happened last December.  For example at first , I thought I was weighing in on a theological difference, something I have done hundreds of times over the years. I (still) believe it is possible to have theological differences without the need for rancor and anger.

 

When I realized that this went far beyond theology, and had to do with Jacob’s rage and verbal abuse, particularly against two women I know, Sally Richardson and Debby Menelaws, I stood up for Stewart and Debby as you know in a column. I have no regrets about sticking up for them, even tho that was the death knell to a long friendship with Jacob.

 

When I took the column down, it was not at the behest of Jacob, although you and tbckawaii and others have asserted that I did, and that that was a craven act. I literally took it down because I do not blog about personalities, and I thought it sufficient to stick up for them and move on. The fact that Jacob publicly thanked me for doing so was just a tactical move on his part, to make it look like I obeyed him and that we were reconciled. We have not been friends since the 1st week of December (I now regard that as a good thing).

 

I did try to reconcile with Jacob, but never renounced my friendship with the Menelaws, nor my critique of Jacob’s harsh rhetoric. who wouldn’t try to restore a twenty plus year friendship?

 

Anyway, I meant it when in April, I told you that I considered David a friend, I did at that time, until he repudiated me to you, in “fact checking Bill Randles”.  I was surprised by David’s reply, and answered him immediately, point by point. I have yt to hear from him. In God’s good time I will endeavor to reach out to David, but I realize I may not be succesfull. Too many people making it worse by lodging false accusations, misreading motives, and pouring fuel n the fires of strife.

 

Well here we are after all these months and all of this strife, back to what I  asked you for in April, an apology and perhaps a chance to talk , man to man.

Mike none of us expected events to careen out of control as they did last November/December, but God was in it. God had to expose all of us; myself, Jacob P, David N, Amos F,  an the whole cast of characters, including, you and tbckawaii, and of course Treena. God has been working in this from the beginning, and so has Satan.

 

Discernment is needed as long as we can avoid the pitfalls of bitterness, and of pride in being “right” while pointing out those who are “wrong”.  Shouldn’t we heed Paul’s counsel in Galatians 6 ?

 

Brothers,[a] if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

 

Thanks again for displaying something of the Spirit of meekness, and let me know if there is ever any chance we can meet, fellowship or work things out…Grace and Peace to you, Pas Bill Randles

 

Bill Randles <pastorbillrandles@gmail.com>

Fri 11/15/2019 11:31 AM

  • You

Mike first of all, thanks for yesterday’s apology. I accept it and really hope that it sticks. Secondly, I am a little dissapointed by your comments after your apology, on your blog. It is almost as though you want the world to know that though you graciously apologized to me, I am still a very bad person….

 

It’s unfortunate that you choose to invalidate the reconciliation process (Matthew 18) by putting negative comments out about us during the time you knew we were in the process of responding to you. While we are thankful that your grievances against us have been resolved, our issues that we brought to you remain unanswered due to your actions; not only with the negative comments but with the Matthew 18 process itself.

 

 

I didn’t choose to invalidate the reconciliation process, You did, by rejecting my Matthew 18 initiative. My comments came in the period when you told me you would have to “pray about reconciliation and seek counsel about it”. As long as those comments remained in the public for all to see, I have no problem with calling you out as a hypocrite for posting them.

 

I will gladly meet with you two or talk by phone or continue to dialogue with you, since you just can’t let this go. You are the one who refuses to meet, and when you do apologize, you just can’t resist going back to the subject the next day.And what hypocrisy, calling me out for putting out “negative comments ‘ about you, after all you hav written about me? What I said about you is mild and true.

 

Furthermore, you said  that all of my issues have been resolved? True, but not by you and I resolving them. There is so much more you have said in the short time I have been acquainted with you that is unfair, untrue and flat-out vicious. I just choose to take what you have offered, the apology, and leave the rest alone. There are a lot of issues, which I am willing to just relinquish, as I think your apology was probably as far as you and Pat could go. I accept that and loose you. I forgive you.  I wish we could just leave this well enough alone, but suspect that your “counsel” will not allow that, being so bitterly angry for some reason. I am for peace,not war- Pastor Bill

Response

Mike Rogers

Fri 11/15/2019 4:46 PM

  • Bill Randles

Well Bill it appears that you live with a sense of entitlement and I’ll leave it at that. I have taken counsel from four different individuals and everyone after I presented the evidence pretty much said the same exact thing concerning you.  So I think because as you said we think so differently you should just go your way I’ll go mine . Does that mean I’m not gonna post things about you? I most likely will where the truth is concerned.  Just as you do with David Nathan and your continued vilification of him and your smear campaign against me, it’s all good bud because I’m not driven by what people say about me as you seem to be.  I don’t do what I do to be liked.  I do what I do to help the body of Christ whether you can see it or not matters not to me.  I think it’s strange that you can say the things that you say about people and point the finger of judgment at them because they’ve said negative things concerning you even though those things are true and yet you are incapable of judging yourself and holding yourself accountable for your own actions.  You skirt the hardest issues, refused to answer anything biblically and just throw accusation at me, the very thing that you accuse me of your guilty of.  So until I see a public demonstration of repentance on your part I would really rather not hear from you again

 

Bill Randles <pastorbillrandles@gmail.com>

Fri 11/15/2019 5:18 PM

  • You

How about letting me present my evidence to your four counselors? How could they make a fair judgment of me based solely on your biased evidence?  Let them know I want to speak to them also, didn’t Jesus teach us to judge righteously? I am fine with breaking off communications with you, you seem incapable of truly working things out in a godly fashion, if you ever change your heart let me know, pas bill

 

Bill Randles <pastorbillrandles@gmail.com>

Fri 11/15/2019 5:41 PM

  • You

Thanks Mike, it’s great to have the old Mike back again. I thought the apology was too good to be true. I haven’t had a chance to skirt any issues because you will not allow so

Much as a discussion. Have it your way I guess, I. Tried to make peace with my enemy God knows, but you refused. I will pray for you, pas bill

Frank Rogers, Bill Randles witness weighs in:

Frank Rogers <heresyhunters3@gmail.com>
Tue 11/19/2019 10:13 AM
  • You;
  •  Bill Randles

Dear Pastor Bill and Brother Mike,

God has put it on my heart to bring one last appeal for peace in this situation where I see the ripple effect of Prasch’s angry sword swinging on the Body of Christ. How much of the New Testament is about peace and unity in the spirit of love within the Body of Christ?

Col 3:” 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.”

Pastor Bill, I believe Mike had shown great humility and grace in initiating peace with you by issuing a public apology and removing much content he felt was done improperly. I believe if you really seek peace you will have to bring forth your own apology to Mike and others instead of simply claiming the high moral ground and publishing their humble apology. If you cannot return grace for grace, humility for humility I highly doubt you will achieve peace with mike and others. What-aboutism will not suffice here, instead of pointing the finger it must start with you Pastor Bill. True humility seeks to be the initiator in owning up to our own error first. Life is very short let’s fix what can be fixed and be unified in peace and in Christ.

God bless you both as Pastors and fellow brothers

Tue 11/19/2019 10:36 AM
  • You;
  •  Frank Rogers
Thanks for sharing! I am a sincere person Frank and cannot offer a reciprocal apology, for I have  in no way injured Mike. I never knew him at all, when he began his vicious campaign of sliming my name. It was I who initiated Matthew 18 and he who refuses it, but now publicly claims that I am the one who refuses it. My policy for the time being will be to ignore him, pray for him and try to ignore his spare of vicious and
Libelous articles. I do apologize to you for ever trying to bring you in as a witness brother. Pastor Bill.                      Ps you compare blogs, you will never see the utter vitriol and contempt on my blog that you see on his, it is almost as if he and Treena are obsessed with me, todo
Me harm. No moral higher ground, just facts for any fair minded man to see
Mike Rogers
Tue 11/19/2019 5:15 PM
  • Bill Randles;
  •  Frank Rogers

Thank you Frank, we are grateful you have weighed in and appreciate your wise words. We are also very thankful to have had wise counsel to help navigate through this and kept us all covered  in prayer. We continue to keep you in prayer as you too call out the many sins and error of Jacob Prasch. As you say the ripple effect has affected so many.We are thankful for God’s grace and mercy as we are seeing some come out of this poison.  Once again, Bill, we were very clear on why we choose to disengage, our counsel concurred, it was your behavior and actions that proved to be in error and unsound.

Praying that God continues to do His work in us.

Mike and Pat

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